Nourish Bump and Beyond
Whether you're planning to conceive, struggling with fertility challenges, or navigating the joys and complexities of pregnancy, this podcast is your trusted source for a nourished start to parenthood.
Nourish Bump and Beyond
Episode 10: Breastfeeding part 2 | Understanding the benefits| Breaking down barriers
In this episode, Michelle and Anika discuss the benefits and barriers of breastfeeding. They share their own trials and triumphs and discuss factors that contributed to their positive breastfeeding journeys.
Articles mentioned in this episode
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/apa.13132/abstract
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6972160/
https://internationalbreastfeedingjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13006-023-00545-5
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/JAHA.121.022746
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The information provided in this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your diet or nutrition plan, especially if you are trying to conceive or are already pregnant. The hosts and guests of this podcast are not responsible for any adverse effects or consequences resulting from the use of the information discussed.
You're listening to Nourish, Bump and Beyond, the podcast dedicated to all things fertility and prenatal nutrition. We are hosts, Annika Rowe and Michelle Brown. We believe that successful pregnancy outcomes start with good nutrition. Each week, we'll explore various aspects of nutrition, focusing on how specific nutrients, foods, and dietary choices can enhance preconception wellness, optimize fertility, and support a healthy pregnancy. Whether you're planning to conceive, struggling with fertility challenges, or navigating the joys and complexities of pregnancy, this podcast is your trusted source for a nourished start to parenthood. Let's dive in.
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:hello and welcome back to episode 10 of Nourish Bump and Beyond. This is Annika here. It's World Breastfeeding Week this week, so Michelle and I will be continuing our chat. We thought we would start off with some of the breastfeeding statistics in Australia and look into perhaps why it's
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:the statistics are quite interesting, especially when you start comparing them to other countries. So we know that in Australia, less than half of women are still breastfeeding at around the 12
Month mark.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:which may seem like quite a good achievement and it is within its own rights. Though, we know the World Health Guidelines advocates for women to be breastfeeding to two years at least and beyond if mum and bub feel comfortable doing it.
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah, for sure. And it was interesting because I couldn't find much statistics around that 18 month mark we do know that only 5 percent of women are breastfeeding at, two years, and that's non exclusive breastfeeding.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:is really interesting, like I've just come back from Indonesia and I know just chatting to women over there, um, when you ask them how long do women breastfeed for, they say kind of at least two months is pretty normal. You can see them out the front holding their babies, breastfeeding, um, and even just holding their babies a lot more, which I feel like in Australia, and this might be one of the reasons why our rates are a little bit lower. You know, we've got all these, jolly jumpers, we've got baby rockers, we've got all these things to put the baby in And they're not actually close to mom. And I do think that when the baby is close to mum it does help to establish, but also maintain that bond and allow the mum and the baby to continue that breastfeeding journey
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:I think you, you raised a really good point there with, mums not being able to hold the babies as much. And I think one of those reasons is because, mums In parts of the world, like Australia, do have to worry about going back to work. And running a household. there's not much help available for a lot of mums. So, don't have the opportunity to hold the bubs as much.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah, that's true. And like, this is just another observation, but a lot of the little shops over there that are run by mums, the kids are in there with their mums. And there might be a few different kids that are in the shop, not helping their mum because They're obviously toddlers and whatnot, but they're there. They're close with their mums. And if there is an older child, they'll often help look after the kids as well. So, definitely think you've hit the nail on the head there. And you also mentioned a really good point you said about the help and the assistance. And that's another thing. was chatting to a guy and he said his firstborn was a boy, but if it had been a girl, then, um, When the girl gets married, her husband comes to live with the family. So it's, um, just to help the family out because there's no boy, I presume. So, yeah, like I just think about our society and I don't know anyone who's got kids that would be living in, you know, multi generational households at all. everyone seems to kind of go off more independently and I do think That also limits the assistance, like in other cultures, they're living, um, closer to each other, or even in the same household. And they do get that help and that assistance, whether it's with other tasks, like cooking, cleaning, and things,
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:for sure. Now That we've talked about the rates of breastfeeding in Australia let's look at some of the reasons as to why they might be low. So we've talked about return to work potentially being one of the reasons and I was looking at some research as well to see what it could be. There is a recent paper, that came out in 2023, that reported some reasons. for women, who stopped breastfeeding and the top reasons were to do with breastfeeding challenges, such as latching issues, low milk supply. So breastfeeding challenges was about 47 percent and low milk supply was about 40%, but they also talked about things like returning to work and medical conditions such as mastitis.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah, interesting. I wonder if that low milk supply, I don't know if you know any Kyle, but is that self reported low milk supply or is that actually diagnosed
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:No, that paper talks about perceived low milk supply? so I think it's to do with the women feeling like they, don't have enough milk coming in and and I've spoken to lots of women who, have told me the same thing that was one of the reasons why they stopped and it is perceived,
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:which is really interesting because, like I feel like you do need to continue breastfeeding is supply and demand. So you do need to have that, closeness with your baby to continue to breastfeed to keep up your supply. So that's one, one thing to note. but just on the notion of the perceived, like as you progress through breastfeeding, it could feel like you don't have as much milk as early days but really your body has just adjusted to what your child now needs. So if they're not a newborn anymore they're going to need less milk especially if they've started to wean onto solids. Um, but also the composition of that milk changes.
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:Definitely. I've noticed that I don't get that anymore like the intense Gush kind of, feeling. There is a bit more milk at the beginning of the breastfeeding journey because your body makes a bit more at the beginning because it's still trying to figure out how much milk you need and then as it starts to work out your needs the supply will drop off and that's completely normal but then that's where a lot of women might, think that my supply is low and then they might resort to other ways to feed their baby, such as switching over to formula.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah, of course, and then once you do switch over to something like formula, then your milk supply is actually going to be reduced because you're feeding less, so then your body's going to start producing less again.
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah, so true. with medical conditions such as mastitis, I actually remember someone who told me that, she stopped breastfeeding at about eight months because she had mastitis and it was just a Experience.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah, that is such a shame to hear that, that, um, yeah, it's obviously quite painful, but that affected her whole breastfeeding journey. Did you do anything yourself, Anika, to try and prevent mastitis?
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:I just tried to make sure that I was pumping when I returned to work, other than that, I was just trying to make sure that um, that my baby feeds as frequently as possible. There were times when I was away from her for long hours, but I tried to make sure to feed her as soon as I saw her.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah, exactly right. And I know they say making sure that you're switching, alternating breasts is really good to prevent mastitis because then it prevents one boob from producing too much milk. which is how it can start in the first place. I took, a type of probiotic that is associated with lower, um, rates of mastitis in studies when women have taken it. So I did take that for the first few months, but it is quite expensive. So yeah, I did taper off after the first few months
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:Mmm, I'm Really glad you mentioned that because people don't realise that nutrition can help with treatment and, nutrition can help with prevention of mastitis. Maybe we should do an episode on this later.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? I think, definitely like it's to me, even though it was expensive, it was worthwhile paying the money. I personally never got my status. I was very lucky. whether it was because I was taking the probiotic, who knows, but yet to me, I was happy to kind of throw a little bit of money at that probiotic in the hope that it prevented me from. Yeah, getting my status to start with.
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:my lactation consultant did chat to me about mastitis a few times because, she knew that I would be away from baby as I started returning back to work. But we came up with a plan and I, and I talked to her about how long I would be away, like the longest duration. And, yeah, we, I realized that it was actually okay. And, for me, it didn't, it wasn't. Too bad, but I know it's different for everyone and I think it is one of those things where you need, tailored support.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah, 100%. That's why it's good to get someone external Especially if it's your first rodeo, and have that chat and get that support and the guidance.
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:Mm, yeah. There was also another paper from Canada that talked about some reasons why women stopped breastfeeding before six months. some of those reasons were to do with inconvenience or fatigue that was associated with breastfeeding, concerns about milk supply, as well as return to work.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:It is such a shame that the rates in Australia are quite low, particularly at that 24 month mark, because we know there's so many benefits of breastfeeding for both the baby and the mom. In terms of the short term benefits of baby, we know that the breast milk provides pretty much the ideal balance of nutrients. So the proteins, fats, vitamins, and minerals that the baby needs. that's that's crucial for its growth and development and also that the colostrum. So the first bit of milk that is produced is really important to help protect infants from infections and illness in those early days as well. And I know there was a study that looked at around 400 infants. And some of them were exclusively breastfed. Some of them were mixed. fed and some of them were formula fed and the study found that the severity of RSV infection, for the infants that required oxygen therapy was lower in the breastfed group than the formula fed group. So that was a really interesting
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah, that's really good to know.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:And another thing with the breast milk is that it's easier to digest than the formula for babies because it is tailored towards them. So there's less likelihood of them having digestive issues such as constipation. there's also the long term benefits as well. So, breast milk, um, We know, and a few good research to support this, that there's lower rates of chronic conditions in infants that are breastfed. So things like obesity, type two diabetes, obviously you don't get that when you're a baby, but down the track, you're less likely to develop that if you are breastfed.
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:There's also some really good data to suggest that babies who are breastfed have higher intelligence levels, and this is coming from a systematic review and meta analysis from 2015, where they found that breastfeeding was related to improved performance in intelligence tests. And, it's hard to establish causality in these sorts of studies, but this particular paper does suggest that the association is causal
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:yeah, that's really interesting. And I know they even say, there's some social benefits as well, there was a study I was reading and, it was a longitudinal study and they found that, um, In children aged 4 to 11 years old, their parents reported less antisocial and aggressive behavior in children that were breastfed when they were infants, but then there was also this longitudinal study that looked at adults from 20 years old to 40 years old, and they found that a significantly greater amount of hostile behavior was found in adults who weren't breastfed compared to, adults who were breastfed when they were infants. So, yeah, that was really interesting to see them follow up over the long term.
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah, it just goes to show, that the babies who are breastfed possibly do feel that secure attachment as they grow up.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah, and I think a lot of people perceive that secure as like a needy baby. I know when I was a new mum, I kind of felt like people thought that my son was like a bit needy, but, um, I do think he's got a very secure attachment with me. And yeah, as time's progressed, I've I've learnt to value that and realise how lucky I am to have that really close bond with my son.
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah, I agree with you. I think a lot of people think that Like, Safia is definitely, very, Um, I don't want to use the word clingy, but she does, uh, you know, look for connection a lot, um, especially through breastfeeding. So, um, I try not to use the word clingy. I might, I try to say something like craving connection because, what they're looking for is, is that secure attachment.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah, I love that. I love that you've rephrased that as craving connection. I think that's a really nice way to put it. And it's exactly what they're after.
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:we all crave connection, really, don't we? But at different amounts as, yeah, as we age, we probably become more independent. But obviously when we're younger, we're much more dependent, so we need that connection.
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:yeah. And there's such a negative connotation with babies being clingy. our baby's needing connection.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:I feel like in our society, we want them to be independent. early on and quickly so mum can get back to previous life like working and everything else that she needs to do maybe to the with little to no assistance yeah really like we need to give those baby's our time because they need that time that closeness us
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:so different. I think some crave more connection than others. Continuing on with the benefits, there's also some good research to suggest that, breastfeeding babies is going to be protective for asthma and potentially for for allergic rhinitis. Um, but the evidence is a bit weaker for those two, And, this was a systematic review and meta analyses from 2015.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:So this year's theme for Breastfeeding Week is breastfeeding support for all. So how do you think, Anika, we can support mums who would like to breastfeed?
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yes, I think it's such a great question because I feel like it's really something that we need to work towards if we want to increase the proportion of women who are breastfeeding, for longer. I feel like moms need more support, especially in that early postpartum period.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:I agree with you there because it's like a time where you're quite tired as well, so that support's so crucial.
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:Hmm. Another period I think might be return to work because I know that's when a lot of women start to think about weaning because they're going back to work and people think it's too hard to. continue breastfeeding.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah, and I know supportive workplaces are a big thing. Um, some are more supportive than others, and that can really shape. How that breastfeeding experience folds out when the mum does return to work.
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:I think, the thing is, not a lot of women feel comfortable pumping at work. Often there isn't a space, there isn't a private space for them to pump and it would take up some extra time as well. Just having to store that milk, all of those factors play a role for a woman, when, they're thinking about whether to pump, at work or not.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:And another thing, I feel like there's a little bit of stigma around breastfeeding a toddler. people feel like you should have weaned already. It's like, oh, why are you still breastfeeding your toddler? And I feel like that can weigh on mums. Shoulders, so to speak, and impact whether she's going to continue that journey, whether she wants to or not, but perhaps other people's thoughts and opinions that they, project onto her about the child's age. When really, if we know the World Health Organization says if mum and bub are comfortable, then breastfeeding is really the best thing up to two years and beyond. So it's not just up to two years, it's past two years as well. If mum and bub. Both feel comfortable to continue.
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah. Such a great point. You mentioned there about breastfeeding and the judgment, I have experienced this myself. and I know, just how. Awkward it can be especially when you're at family events and you have to tell someone that you want to breastfeed your toddler, I actually had a friend who told me last month that only her close, family know that she's breastfeeding, so uh, she kept it quite private, the fact that she's still breastfeeding at 19 months. And I just feel like that's such a shame women have to keep these things private, because we really shouldn't have to hide the fact that we're breastfeeding.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:No, not at all. It should be celebrated if anything.
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:And I think The only way this can happen is for us to
normalise breastfeeding
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:and, and make it look like it's okay, to be breastfeeding a toddler and it's not something that's frowned upon.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:Yeah, I completely agree with what you've said there Annika. So what are your tips, Anika, if someone is breastfeeding, say, a toddler, what would your top tips be for them?
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:I think my number one tip would be to communicate with your employer, especially if you're returning to work and you're wanting to continue breastfeeding. It's definitely possible. A lot of people feel like they have to wean and, it's going to get in their way of breastfeeding. doing their work, but it certainly doesn't. So, you may not even need to pump. And I think that's when it's really important to see a lactation consultant. I know we've mentioned it already in our last episode, but it is very crucial because they've really got the expertise, when it comes to talking, when it comes to sharing knowledge about breastfeeding.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:I love those tips that you've just shared.
anika_1_08-06-2024_171707:Before we finish up, I wanted to quickly mention that there will be a list of papers in the show notes, the ones we have referred to.
squadcaster-e9ha_1_08-06-2024_171707:bye for now.
Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Nourish, Bump and Beyond. We hope this episode has inspired you to prioritize your nutrition and nourish your journey towards parenthood. Don't forget to connect with us on Instagram at appetitebyannika and foodforfertility for more tips, updates and resources.